A conversation with Douglas Waller, author of The Determined Spy: The Turbulent Life and Times of CIA Pioneer Frank Wisner
Q. Why did you write The Determined Spy?
The Determined Spy is my seventh book on the military or intelligence. For my historical biographies I’ve gravitated toward charismatic yet controversial figures. World War II spy chief Wild Bill Donovan, the subject of one of my biographies, was certainly that kind of figure. People either loved or hated him. Frank Wisner, my latest biographic subject, was that as well. Few were neutral on him. I find as a biographer, that these kinds of subjects are more interesting—and challenging—to tackle.
Q.Writing books takes a long time. Why do you like doing it?
I enjoy diving deeply into a subject. I find writing historical biographies to be fascinating work. You have to accomplish two missions with a historical biography. You must study intensely the person who’s your biographical subject. And you have to research intensely the history of the times in which your biographical subject lived. I like that kind of twin challenge.
Q. How did you go about writing The Determined Spy?
I write books the way my high school English teacher taught me to write essays—only on a much larger scale. I started The Determined Spy project with what historians call secondary research. I read hundreds of books and articles on Wisner, his times and the people who interacted with him, to see what others had written. I make notes on 3”-by-5” notecards on what I read—just like in high school—and for this project I collected about 15,000 notecards.
Then I dove into the primary research. I worked on this book during the Covid epidemic, which presented a particular challenge. Many libraries and archives shut down, so in a number of cases, I had to get archivist to send me documents from their stacks. I also collected some 50,000 pages of documents from the Internet, in the online archives kept by the CIA, FBI, State Department and Pentagon. Wisner’s family also cooperated. I spent about 50 hours interviewing Wisner’s three sons, who also provided me hundreds of pages of documents from the family’s collection.
After the research I drafted an outline—just like my English teacher taught me—only in this case my outline numbered 310 pages. Finally, I began writing the book, which proceeded fairly quickly because of the detailed outline I wrote. I could crank out about 1,200 words a day.
Q. What surprised you in writing this book?
I was just a child when the Cold War unfolded in the 1950s, the son of a Naval officer, too young to realize what was happening in the world beyond a vague sense that Russia was this evil nation. Writing The Determined Spy immersed me in the turbulent world of the 1950s and the existential threat the Soviet Union was considered by the top levels of the American government. I was surprised by the lengths Wisner and other senior U.S. officials went to fight the Russians in the shadows. It was fascinating for me to go back to the roll-out of the first Cold War with Joseph Stalin—particularly as I now watch the roll-out of the second Cold War with Vladimir Putin.
Q. What did you find interesting about Wisner?
Frank Wisner was such a complicated man. It would have been fascinating to be around him. I would have liked to have been a journalist covering Wisner in Washington during the 1950s. Wisner liked reporters. He regularly interacted with them. Her didn’t leak secrets to the press. And Wisner never wanted to see his name in the newspapers. But he did try to manipulate the press and shape stories reporters were writing about U.S. national security to serve the interests of the CIA. Wisner thought saying “no comment” to a reporter was dumb; in effect you were confirming the story the reporter was writing. Far better to talk to the media, he thought.
Q. What did Wild Bill Donovan like about Frank Wisner?
Wisner came from the country’s upper class as did many of his colleagues in the CIA’s clandestine service. Donovan recruited the country’s best and brightest for his World War II spy service. He also looked for men and women from the nation’s best families. That was one of the reasons news columnists joked that OSS stood for “Oh So Social.” But Donovan also looked for “a PhD who could win a bar fight,” so it was said of him. Wisner, who came from a well-off Mississippi family, had the same leadership trait as Donovan. When Wisner led the CIA’s clandestine service, he looked for the nation’s upper crust who could be taught the dark arts.
Q. How did the CIA react to officers like Wisner who suffered from mental illness?
The CIA in Wisner’s day had an enlightened and pragmatic attitude toward its officers who developed mental illness, viewing it as a battle casualty. The agency early on formed a psychiatric unit, which, among other things, monitored mental health problems among CIA officers. If the agency couldn’t treat an officer in-house, it had private mental health facilities it could send its officers to, which had been vetted so the CIA could be sure that whatever an officer told medical personnel would not leave the facility. After the treatment ended, the agency tried to return the officer to his old job. In Wisner’s case, after treatment he did not return to the high-pressure job of clandestine service chief. Instead, a less demanding place was found for him as chief of the CIA’s London station.
Q. How does the intelligence services of Donovan’s and Wisner’s day compare with today’s CIA?
Today’s CIA is far better. Donovan’s and Wisner’s organizations were still in the learning phase—there was a lot of trial by error. Today’s CIA along with the rest of the U.S. intelligence community, which includes 17 other intelligence agencies in different parts of the government, is far more seasoned and proficient with a worldwide reach. This community covers the globe with satellites in the sky, agents on the ground, and liaison relationships with friendly foreign spy services. The U.S. government spends more than $1.5 billion a week collecting intelligence. It’s one of the capabilities that defines America as a superpower.
